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Troy Ellerman Stories and opinions
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You are here: news home > cindy's comments > cindy's announcements
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Troy Ellerman Stories and opinions
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Posted Friday, June 8, 2007 |
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START OF A NEW TOPIC
START
OF A NEW TOPIC
KarenMartin
State Finalist Champeen
Posts: 248
Registered: 12-3-2006
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: TBD
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![[*]](http://www.rodeoattitude.com/forum/images/demiZeCorp/default_icon.gif)
posted on 7-12-2007 at 07:44 AM |
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BALCO
leaker invokes Libby commutation in plea for leniency
By PAUL ELIAS, Associated Press Writer
Tuesday, July 10, 2007
(07-10) 18:08 PDT San Francisco (AP) --
An attorney who admitted leaking the confidential grand jury
testimony of slugger Barry Bonds to the media, asked a federal judge
for leniency Tuesday, noting that President Bush commuted I. Lewis
"Scooter" Libby's prison sentence for a similar crime.
In doing so, Troy Ellerman joins a growing a list of defendants
across the country who have made the same arguments for leniency
since Bush said the former vice presidential aide's 2 1/2-year
sentence for leaking the name of a CIA operative was too harsh and
commuted it to probation and a fine.
Ellerman's invocation of Libby's case Tuesday was part of a much
larger court filing arguing for a prison sentence of 15 months,
rather than the two years federal prosecutors are seeking.
Last month, U.S. District Court Judge Jeffrey White said that even
two years in prison was too light of sentence, and he refused to
accept Ellerman's plea deal. White said Ellerman's conduct was
especially egregious because he was a lawyer and lied to judges and
in court filings when discussing the leaked grand jury transcripts.
Ellerman, 44, pleaded guilty to allowing a newspaper reporter to
view confidential transcripts of grand jury testimony from Bonds,
Jason Giambi, Gary Sheffield and other athletes embroiled in the
government's steroids investigation. He initially blamed federal
investigators for leaking the testimony.
Ellerman was a successful Sacramento attorney when Victor Conte,
founder of the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative, hired him following
the raid of the Burlingame nutritional supplements lab, as part of
the government probe.
A friend and former private investigator in Ellerman's law office
turned him in to authorities after they had a falling out over
employment at the Professional Rodeo Cowboys Association, where
Ellerman served briefly as commissioner before he was indicted.
He pleaded guilty to four felony counts of obstruction of justice
and related charges in February.
Ellerman's lawyer, Scott Tedmon, urged the judge to consider Libby's
commutation when he sentences Ellerman on Thursday.
"As with Mr. Libby, Troy Ellerman is a first-time offender with
years of exceptional work as an attorney in both the public and
private sectors," Tedmon argued in the court filing, which also
noted that Ellerman pleaded guilty while Libby demanded a jury
trial. "Mr. Ellerman, unlike Lewis Libby, has done everything
in his power to promote the judicial process in expediting this case
to a prompt resolution."
Tedmon noted that the Libby and Ellerman were both convicted of
leaking confidential information to reporters and then lying to
investigators.
But he said there was one dramatic difference between their cases:
"Mr. Libby's conduct involved matters of national security,
while Mr. Ellerman's conduct has no nexus to national
security."
Tedmon said in an interview Tuesday that both men have suffered
embarrassment and lost professions because of their crimes and that
both should be treated similarly by the judicial system.
"Ellerman and Libby are both former lawyers," Tedmon said.
"Both leaked information they shouldn't have."
Lawyers and law professors have taken to calling the argument for
leniency based on President Bush's commutation a "Libby
motion."
Ellen Podgor, who teaches criminal law at Stetson University in St.
Petersburg, Fla., said she's been asked to review several Libby
motions and has heard of other arguments being made around the
country.
"There is a legitimate reason to make this motion," Podgor
said.
Still, Podgor said she's doubtful that many of those motions will be
successful in winning lighter sentences.
"There is going to be a judge or two out there that may use
it," she said.
Assistant U.S. Attorney Douglas Miller, who led the Ellerman
prosecution, declined comment. In court papers filed Tuesday, Miller
urged the judge to sentence Ellerman to two years in prison.
************************************************
The above article was found at:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/07/10/sports/s180812D69.DTL&hw=ellerman&sn=001&sc=1000
Best way to reach me is via email: MizKMart@aol.com
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KarenMartin
State Finalist Champeen
Posts: 248
Registered: 12-3-2006
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: TBD
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posted on 7-12-2007 at 08:04 AM |
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People might want to check out another
website – CROOKSANDLIARS – and see the responses to the an
article written by Nicole Belle on July 11th.
It can be found at:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/11/balco-attorney-invokes-libby-for-leniency/
Best way to reach me is via email: MizKMart@aol.com
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KarenMartin
State Finalist Champeen
Posts: 248
Registered: 12-3-2006
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: TBD
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posted on 7-12-2007 at 06:21 PM |
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BALCO
Leak Sentenced to 2 1/2 Years
By PAUL ELIAS, Associated Press Writer
Thursday, July 12, 2007
(07-12) 16:54 PDT San Francisco (AP) --
An attorney who admitted leaking the confidential grand jury
testimony of Barry Bonds and other athletes was sentenced Thursday
to two and a half years in prison, by far the harshest penalty to
result from the government's steroids investigation.
Troy Ellerman, 44, pleaded guilty in February to allowing a San
Francisco Chronicle reporter to view transcripts of testimony by
Bonds, Jason Giambi, Gary Sheffield and other athletes embroiled in
the probe. He initially blamed federal investigators for leaking the
testimony.
U.S. District Court Judge Jeffrey White approved Ellerman's latest
deal with prosecutors about a month after rejecting a plea agreement
calling for a prison term of 15-24 months.
White harshly criticized that sentence as too lenient.
Ellerman's new deal called for up to two years, nine months in
prison. White opted for a slightly shorter sentence but required
Ellerman, who voluntarily gave up his license to practice law in
California, to give 10 speeches on conduct to law students. He did
not assess a fine.
"This affected, and infected every aspect of the judicial
system," White said.
Ellerman was a successful Sacramento attorney when Victor Conte,
founder of the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative, hired him following
a raid of the Burlingame nutritional supplements lab by federal
agents.
He also later served as the attorney for BALCO vice president James
Valente. It was while he was representing Valente that he allowed
reporter Mark Fainaru-Wada to view the players' grand jury
testimony, according to the plea agreement.
Fainaru-Wada and reporter Lance Williams published stories in 2004
reporting Giambi and others had admitted using steroids, while Bonds
and Sheffield testified they didn't knowingly take the drugs. The
leaked testimony was featured prominently in the writers' book
"Game of Shadows," which recounts the alleged steroid use
of Bonds, who is five home runs away from breaking Hank Aaron's
all-time home run record.
A friend and former private investigator in Ellerman's law firm
turned him in to authorities after they had a falling out.
Ellerman pleaded guilty to four felony counts of obstruction of
justice and related charges, and federal prosecutors dropped their
case against the two reporters. They had faced up to 18 months in
prison for refusing to divulge the source of the leak.
Valente and Conte pleaded guilty to steroids-related charges in an
earlier phase of the BALCO investigation, along with chemist Patrick
Arnold, Bonds' personal trainer Greg Anderson and track coach Remi
Korchemny.
Korchemny and Valente were sentenced to probation, and the others
were each sentenced to jail terms no longer than four months.
Anderson remains in prison, where he returned after refusing to
testify before a grand jury investigating possible perjury and tax
evasion charges against Bonds.
The case is United States v. Ellerman, 07-0080.
***************************
The above article was found at:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/07/12/state/n163150D64.DTL
Best way to reach me is via email: MizKMart@aol.com
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SpringFling
Backyard Buckout Champeen
Posts: 60
Registered: 4-3-2006
Location: Out To Pasture
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Mood: Broncy
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posted on 7-6-2007 at 12:42 PM |
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New
Deal For Ellerman...
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2927153&campaign=rss&source=MLBHeadlines
New deal could put BALCO leaker in prison up to 33 months
Updated: July 5, 2007, 8:01 PM EST
SAN FRANCISCO -- The attorney who leaked grand jury testimony of
Barry Bonds and other elite athletes investigated for steroid use
agreed to a maximum sentence of two years and 9 months in prison,
nine months longer than his original plea bargain.
In papers filed in San Francisco federal court Thursday, prosecutors
said Troy Ellerman is willing to accept a 33-month prison sentence
after a judge last month rejected the original deal of a 24-month
maximum sentence as too lenient.
Federal prosecutors also agreed to reduce the maximum fine he faces
to $60,000 from the $250,000 agreed to earlier.
District Court Judge Jeffrey White, who rejected the earlier deal,
still must approve the new agreement when Ellerman returns to court
July 12.
Ellerman's attorney Scott Tedmon said he will still argue that his
client should be sentenced to 15 months in prison -- an argument
that didn't persuade the judge last month.
"We are trying to wrap this thing up without a lot of
litigation," Tedmon said. "We're trying to give the judge
some latitude."
Ellerman pleaded guilty to allowing a newspaper reporter to view
confidential transcripts of grand jury testimony from Bonds, Jason
Giambi, Gary Sheffield and other athletes embroiled in the
government's steroids investigation. The 44-year-old Ellerman
initially blamed federal investigators for leaking the testimony.
Ellerman was a successful Sacramento attorney when Victor Conte,
founder of the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative, hired him following
the raid of the Burlingame nutritional supplements lab, part of the
government probe.
Ellerman also later served as the attorney for BALCO vice president
James Valente and has copies of the grand jury testimony being used
to prosecute his clients. Ellerman allowed San Francisco Chronicle
reporter Mark Fainaru-Wada to view the players' grand jury
testimony, according to the plea agreement.
Fainaru-Wada and fellow reporter Lance Williams then published
stories in 2004 reporting that Giambi and others had admitted using
steroids, while Bonds and Sheffield testified they didn't knowingly
take the drugs. The leaked testimony was featured prominently in the
writers' book "Game of Shadows," which recounts Bonds'
alleged use of steroids.
After Ellerman pleaded guilty to four felony charges of obstruction
of justice and disobeying court orders in February, prosecutors
dropped their case against the two reporters. They had faced up to
18 months in prison for refusing to divulge the source of the leak.
Ellerman was fired as commissioner of the Professional Rodeo Cowboys
Association and voluntarily gave up his California license to
practice law.
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| START OF A NEW TOPIC |
KarenMartin
State Finalist Champeen
Posts: 242
Registered: 12-3-2006
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: TBD
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posted on 6-6-2007 at 09:49 PM |
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BALCO
leaker blames drugs, alcohol, media hounds for downfall
By PAUL ELIAS Associated Press
Writer
Article Launched: 06/06/2007 05:52:20 PM PDT
SAN FRANCISCO—The disgraced criminal defense attorney
facing prison for leaking grand jury testimony in the
BALCO steroids investigation blamed alcohol, drugs and
depression for his downfall, according to court documents
filed by prosecutors Wednesday.
Troy Ellerman also said journalists' constant
"hounding" led him to show transcripts of
testimony by baseball stars Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi and
other athletes to a San Francisco Chronicle reporter.
In the filing, prosecutors asked a federal judge to
sentence Ellerman to two years in prison for leaking
confidential grand jury testimony to the reporter and then
lying about it under oath.
A judge is scheduled to sentence Ellerman on June 14. His
lawyer argued in court papers for a 15-month prison
sentence, while probation officers recommended 18 months.
Ellerman admitted earlier this year that in 2004 he
allowed reporter Mark Fainaru-Wada to view transcripts of
the grand jury testimony of Bonds, Giambi, Detroit Tiger
Gary Sheffield and sprinter Tim Montgomery.
Ellerman had transcripts of the athletes' testimony
because he had briefly represented Victor Conte, founder
of the Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative, the Burlingame
supplements lab at the center of the performance enhancing
drug scandal.
BALCO vice president James Valente later became Ellerman's
client.
The Chronicle published stories in 2004 that reported
Giambi and Montgomery admitted to the grand jury that they
took steroids, while Bonds and Sheffield testified they
didn't knowingly take the drugs. The leaked testimony was
also featured prominently in the book "Game of
Shadows," co-authored by Fainaru-Wada, which recounts
Bonds' alleged use of steroids.
On Wednesday, Major League Baseball Commissioner Bud Selig
asked Giambi to talk to former U.S. Sen. George Mitchell,
who is leading baseball's internal steroids investigation.
Ellerman, 44, initially blamed federal investigators for
leaking the testimony, going so far as to call them
"unadulterated punks" outside court and file a
motion to dismiss the case against his client because of
government misconduct. A federal judge asked the
Department of Justice to investigate whether government
agents were the source of the leaks.
"Mr. Ellerman's illegal conduct significantly
impacted the investigation and prosecution of the BALCO
case, and has continued to negatively impact the
government's ongoing efforts to investigate and prosecute
matters associated with BALCO," prosecutors wrote to
the probation department in a letter filed with the court
Wednesday.
Prosecutors pointed to Ellerman's motion to dismiss as
evidence that there was more to blame than drugs and booze
for Ellerman's deceit.
"The government does not fully accept defendant's
assertion that his actions were in no way
calculated," federal prosecutors said in court papers
asking the judge to send Ellerman to prison for 24 months.
Larry McCormack, a private investigator who worked out of
Ellerman's Sacramento office when the Chronicle reporter
visited to view the grand jury testimony, approached the
FBI last year after a falling out with Ellerman.
McCormack wore a wire when Ellerman made statements
implicating himself as the source of the leak.
Scott Tedmon, Ellerman's attorney, didn't return a
telephone call Wednesday. In court papers filed late
Tuesday asking for a 15-month prison sentence, Tedmon
wrote that Ellerman is remorseful and has given up his
license to practice law in California.
"Given the punishment Mr. Ellerman has already
endured, having lost two full professional careers and
suffering widespread public ridicule in the media for his
actions among other losses in his life, no further amount
of deterrence for Mr. Ellerman is necessary," Tedmon
wrote.
Ellerman was also fired as commissioner of the
Professional Rodeo Cowboys Association when he pleaded
guilty to four felony charges of obstruction of justice
and disobeying court orders in February.
*****************************************
The above article was found at: http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_6076792?nclick_check=1
Best way to reach me is via email: MizKMart@aol.com
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KarenMartin
State Finalist Champeen
Posts: 242
Registered: 12-3-2006
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: TBD
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posted on 6-7-2007 at 05:58 AM |
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THE BALCO CASE
Lawyer who leaked athletes' testimony seeks less prison
time
Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer
Thursday, June 7, 2007
A lawyer who admitted leaking grand jury transcripts of
athletes' testimony in the BALCO steroids case has asked a
federal judge to sentence him to 15 months in prison, nine
months shorter than prosecutors' recommendation.
Troy Ellerman, who once represented the founder and
another executive of the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative,
pleaded guilty in February to four felony charges. He
admitted he allowed a Chronicle reporter to take notes on
the grand jury transcripts of testimony by Barry Bonds and
other athletes in 2004 at the same time that he was asking
a judge to dismiss charges against his client because of
the leaks, which he blamed on the government.
The admission led prosecutors to drop a contempt-of-court
case that could have sent Chronicle reporters Mark Fainaru-Wada
and Lance Williams to prison for 18 months for refusing to
identify the source of athletes' grand jury testimony
about drug use that they had quoted in a series of
articles.
The Chronicle and the two reporters have refused to
confirm whether Ellerman was a source of the transcripts
or to discuss how the paper came by the grand jury
testimony, saying that would violate a promise of
confidentiality.
Five defendants have pleaded guilty to illegal drug
distribution in the BALCO case. A grand jury is
investigating Bonds for possible perjury in his denial
that he knowingly used steroids.
Ellerman's plea agreement provides for up to two years in
prison and a fine of as much as $250,000. U.S. District
Judge Jeffrey White of San Francisco, who has scheduled
sentencing for June 14, could decide that the agreement is
too lenient and allow Ellerman to withdraw his plea and go
to trial.
Federal prosecutors in Los Angeles, who handled the leak
case, argued Wednesday for a two-year term. Noting that
Ellerman was "willing to have reporters go to prison
for him" until an informant identified him as the
source, prosecutors said White should "send a strong
message to both the media and those who have access to
protected information that this type of crime will not be
taken lightly."
The court probation office recommended an 18-month
sentence, saying Ellerman's crime was an aberration due in
part to his alcoholism, drug use and depression, according
to court papers quoted by prosecutors.
Ellerman's lawyer, Scott Tedmon, argued for a 15-month
sentence, acknowledging that the crimes were serious but
saying Ellerman's record is otherwise spotless and he has
already been "punished beyond measure by having to
live with the guilt, remorse and uncertainty of where his
life was headed."
****************************************
The above article was found at: http://www.sfgate.com
Best way to reach me is via email: MizKMart@aol.com
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Talbot
Backyard Buckout Champeen
Posts: 53
Registered: 1-21-2007
Member Is Offline
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posted on 6-7-2007 at 06:50 AM |
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Cindy,
When will you say enough?
This is not about rodeo.
This is not GOOD for rodeo.
This is pure hate.
I'm not sure if Karen Martin noticed, but Troy Ellerman is
no longer Commissioner. In fact, he is a total rodeo
outcast.
He is facing the music.
He will pay his dues.
Even Karen Martin has skeletons in her closet which we're
willing to forgive (they've been alluded to on this forum
for years).
How about taking the high road and stopping this garbage
for good.
Please delete this thread now.
Thank you.
Bob Talbot
PS. Karen Martin certainly knows about leaking
confidential information. I have a rodeoboards.com
screenshot of the confidential Tom Feller letter she
leaked.
Let's put an end to this now.
[Edited on 6/7/07 by Talbot] |
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TwineTwirler
Rookie
Posts: 29
Registered: 1-15-2007
Location: Back of the Box
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Mood: Hands High in the Air!
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posted on 6-7-2007 at 08:34 AM |
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Funny how it is Everybody Else's
fault.
This does have to do with Rodeo. The PRCA is mentioned in
the article. It reflects on Rodeo. In a very negative
light. He is a former commissioner. Mr. Selig's (MLB
commissioner) attitude he as shown about testing for
steriods reflects badly on baseball.
Troy knew what he was doing when he did it. He knew it was
illegal. He just thought he could outsmart everyone and
not get caught. THEN he went ahead and became PRCA
commissioner. He never should have done that. As Chairman
of the Board, he should have been an interim commissioner
after Hatchell's resignation. Interim = temporary. Let's
hope that the next commissioner/president/general
manager/grand poobah is GOOD for rodeo.
Miracles do happen, and the PRCA is needing one about now. |
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SpringFling
Backyard Buckout Champeen
Posts: 59
Registered: 4-3-2006
Location: Out To Pasture
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posted on 6-7-2007 at 08:51 AM |
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Wow. Isn't it the cowboy way to
take responsibility for your own actions? Thought he was
when he pled guilty. Now it looks like it's time to spread
the blame. 
Edited for typos - typing too fast!
[Edited on 6/7/07 by SpringFling] |
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Talbot
Backyard Buckout Champeen
Posts: 53
Registered: 1-21-2007
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posted on 6-7-2007 at 09:01 AM |
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Troy Ellerman has admitted his
mistake.
Troy Ellerman is going to Federal Jail.
Troy Ellerman lost his job and reputation in rodeo.
Troy Ellerman will loose his law license.
This happened years before he was commissioner.
What in God's name do you people want?
So much for Christian charity.
You are disgusting human beings.
Bob Talbot
[Edited on 6/7/07 by Talbot] |
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RodeoAttitude
Super Administrator
Posts: 275
Registered: 7-1-2005
Location: Maxwell, Iowa
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posted on 6-7-2007 at 10:57 AM |
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I am taking the high road. I
believe that the PRCA is made up of a group of outstanding
cowboys and cowgirls who are not the typical sterotype
"dumb cowboy". They are in fact extremely
intelligent individuals who are interested in knowing and
understanding todays issues. I also think they are doing
an excellent job of cowboying up and putting together a
new, improved PRCA . They are living proof of the old
saying, "If it don't break us it can only make us
stronger." Fact is facts and they know it and they
don't run from it they fix it. Troy was in a high ranking
postion on their organization when this happened. They are
not running from it or blaming other people. They are
building a better organization that will not allow it to
happen again. Give them credit where credit is due!
No I won't take down the post. I support the PRCA and
believe that they are working very hard to continue their
heritage . I will give them the opportunity to do this.
Now, Mr. Ellerman, face the music and go to jail quietly! |
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Talbot
Backyard Buckout Champeen
Posts: 53
Registered: 1-21-2007
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posted on 6-7-2007 at 11:26 AM |
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You think I am Troy Ellerman?
You are a foolish lady on a low road.
Bob Talbot |
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SpringFling
Backyard Buckout Champeen
Posts: 59
Registered: 4-3-2006
Location: Out To Pasture
Member Is Offline
Mood: Broncy
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posted on 6-7-2007 at 11:58 AM |
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Talbot,
I did not read Cindy's post as referring to you as Troy.
She was addressing Troy himself. But it is all in the eye
of the beholder, isn't it? |
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KarenMartin
State Finalist Champeen
Posts: 242
Registered: 12-3-2006
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: TBD
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posted on 6-7-2007 at 12:23 PM |
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Whohooo Cindy! I'm not surprised
whatsoever that Talbot, if not Troy obviously a Troy
supporter, wants you to delete this thread saying it has
nothing to do with rodeo.
But Troy was Chairman of the Board in 2004 when he was on
the Balco case and then he became Commissioner in 2005.
Drugs and alcohol, eh? So obviously this was during the
same time period when he was Chairman and Commissioner
right? Or do you wanna bet these things were only
mentioned just for the judge's benefit? Again, just more
lies on top of the other whoppers.
Troy did not LOSE his job nor was he FIRED like it said in
the top article. Of course everyone remembers that he
RESIGNED. How can one forget that the PRCA BODs were going
to pay him a $204,000 severance package until the
membership pitched a fit???
I also like the part where it mentions that he gave up his
law license ... like it was voluntary.
It is one thing to be caught in a web of lies, but it is
another when the actions of primarily one individual hits
the rodeo community emotionally as well as financially:
The WPRA lawsuit is based upon the fact that he sold the
television, marketing, and other rights of the WPRA to a
third party until the year 2029, and to cover up this
illegal act he created the PWBR. Of course, in order for
it to be immediately successful, TE and his staff at his
direction used [stole] the WPRA membership list, copied
the WPRA rule book in order to create one of their own, as
well as interfered with various rodeo committees through
threats and onerous demands.
Today the WPRA is on the brink of bankruptcy trying to
defend what it has spent 60 years in creating. My best
guess is that the legal fees and costs for both the PRCA
and WPRA is over $800,000 so far and this case is still
ongoing and headed to trial.
So Talbot as for defining “Christian charity” and
"disgusting human beings" please note that in my
opinion there is no doubt that this WPRA/PRCA legal chaos
which effects the livelihoods of thousands of people from
both associations is the direct result of the actions of
one person: Guess Who. However, if you want it from
another point of view, I will quote from one of the
articles above: "Federal prosecutors ... Noting that
Ellerman was "willing to have reporters go to prison
for him".
Talbot says Troy made a mistake. Just one?!?! As far as
I’m concerned he broke several LAWS in this country, in
addition to disregarding common business ethics and basic
morals. So right after he looks at the man in the mirror
he needs to take responsibility for his own actions versus
trying to blame everyone and everything else.
Cowboy up Troy and nod your head. The chute gate is going
to open up no matter what ~
Best way to reach me is via email: MizKMart@aol.com
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CCW
Rookie
Posts: 2
Registered: 5-18-2007
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posted on 6-7-2007 at 01:17 PM |
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Bob Talbot you must be smokin
something cause even if Troy is gone the PRCA will be
paying to clean up his mess for years. Too bad the PRCA
can't go after him but after paying the fine for the balco
case i dont think he will have anything left to go after.
He did the crime and he needs to do the time! |
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D.Rogers
Backyard Buckout Champeen
Posts: 69
Registered: 2-9-2007
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posted on 6-7-2007 at 04:28 PM |
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Of course Talbot is Troy. It is
all to obvious. Wonder how many posts Talbot will make
after June 14th? |
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| START OF NEW TOPIC |
KarenMartin
State Finalist Champeen
Posts: 239
Registered: 12-3-2006
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: TBD
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posted on 5-5-2007 at 10:41 AM |
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Legal
Fees and Costs $$$
In regards to the WPRA vs PRCA court case
our PRCA attorneys are:
Lawrence W. Treece @ $425/hour
Tobin D. Kern @ $375/hour
Katherine D. Varholek @ $325/hour
Jerome H. Sturhahn/Paralegal (?) @ $225/hour
I guesstimate for the three day hearing the following legal costs
were incurred as billable time:
$425 x 7.5 hours x 3 days = $9,500
$375 x 7.5 hours x 3 days = $8,400
$325 x 7.5 hours x 3 days = $7,300
$225 x 7.5 hours x 3 days = $5,000
$9,500 + $8,400 + $7,300 + $5,000 = $30,200
Of course there would be additional time required for daily
preparation during this hearing, not to mention all the required
billable hours before the hearing for the depositions, document
gathering, review, as well as the costs to write a very long brief
on the differences and similarities of rule books from various
barrel racing associations.
Also, keeping in mind that the law firm Sherman and Howard LLC is
located in Denver, we would be billed for travel time, hotel
charges, and mileage. This includes the round trip Mr. Treece needed
to take to Albuquerque in order to depose Steve Gilbert.
Legal fees through the end of February according to CFO Kirk Scabo
were $204,000. So if one is to add the hearing costs and all the
billable hours and costs for the preparation in March and April to
the February total of $204,000 ... I’m sure you can draw your own
conclusion as to the what PRCA’s total financial cost is so far in
this case.
In my opinion the only “winners” prior to trial are the
attorneys because they are getting paid. There comes a time to
SETTLE. This was only a 3 day hearing for a preliminary injunction;
the next step is for a 5 DAY JURY TRIAL which will be heard by
August.
We need to keep in mind the time fees and costs which will be
required in order to prepare for that trial will quickly add up.
As a PRCA member I have to ask:
How much $$$$$$ does the PRCA want to keep paying our attorneys?
When is the time to say ENOUGH is ENOUGH?
Can’t our board of directors find a way to settle this ASAP?
According to the WPRA’s brief we are in this mess because Troy
Ellerman sold something that we did not own and then figured he
could cover-up what he did before anyone could figured it out.
I’ve heard that during the hearing the PRCA attorneys were saying
things along the lines of “this is a done deal and we just need to
go forward”. Well I’m sure that there are murderers on death row
who say, “the victim is dead, we can’t bring them back to life,
we just need to go forward”.
In my humble opinion what Troy Ellerman did to the WPRA was illegal,
immoral and unethical, and I expect our board of directors to undo
this damage and find a way to settle this matter before both the
PRCA and WPRA have been driven into bankruptcy due to legal fees and
costs!!!
Best way to reach me is via email: MizKMart@aol.com
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awest
Rookie
Posts: 30
Registered: 1-14-2007
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posted on 5-5-2007 at 02:26 PM |
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I just wish it could go back to the way it
used to be. PRCA had a good working relationship with the WPRA.
(prior to TE running that into the ditch) WPRA has been around for
over 60 years and have "worked out the kinks" so to say
and have made things great for barrel racing. For the PRCA to
practically copy the WPRA rule book, send membership forms to
everyone on the WPRA mailing list, and to give WPRA card holders
PWBR card status, and then use the WPRA's last year standings for
qualifications for limited PWRA rodeos this year, now if that's not
"stealing" I don't know what is.
The PWBR has approx. 900 members, some of those members paid $500
for a card, some paid $300, I believe for a permit. After you add up
those figures, the PRCA is not getting rich after paying all these
legal fees. Also lets not forget that PRCA is picking up the tab for
Aaron Enget's sexual harassment suit, and the lawsuit by Jim Warren.
It sems like PRCA should come to a settlement with WPRA and cut
their losses, and leave the barrel racing to the ones who have
worked for over 60 years to perfect it.
Money doesn't buy class.
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KarenMartin
State Finalist Champeen
Posts: 239
Registered: 12-3-2006
Location: California
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Mood: TBD
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posted on 5-5-2007 at 02:50 PM |
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I also don't understand why the WPRA and
PRCA just can't go back to the way it used to be either.
The fast creation of the PWBR did not make sense to me back then,
and now that the truth has come out as to why it was created and how
he did it ... again I really want to know why things cannot just go
back to how they were.
Surely things can be worked out. Let's stop supporting attorneys!
Best way to reach me is via email: MizKMart@aol.com
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Talbot
Backyard Buckout Champeen
Posts: 50
Registered: 1-21-2007
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posted on 5-5-2007 at 06:08 PM |
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Karen Martin,
You don't know the billable hours.
You don't understand the brief.
Clearly, you have no legal background.
Bob Talbot
PS. The ruling against WPRA's request for injunctive relief in this
case is a clear signal the judge knows WPRA's claim has no merit.
Furthermore, you can not state legal costs for WPRA because their
lawyer is doing it on spec ... hoping to keep a piece of the pie. In
the legal world, that ranks right down there with ambulance chasers.
Edited for sladerous remarks.
[Edited on 5-6-2007 by RodeoAttitude] |
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KarenMartin
State Finalist Champeen
Posts: 239
Registered: 12-3-2006
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: TBD
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posted on 5-5-2007 at 09:06 PM |
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Bob Talbot, once again you come on this
board and attempt to "get me off my game".
The WPRA attorneys had already advised his clients that the
preliminary injunction may not be granted. This was not a surprise,
but I give the WPRA kudos for going for it.
I talked to an attorney after the decision who is not involved with
this case. He figured it would not be granted either if the court
date for the trial could be set in a few months.
He also said that yesterday’s ruling would have no bearing at the
trial.
Interesting to note you say otherwise. I’m not an attorney and
don’t claim to be. What about you?
I do know the WPRA is prepared to have their day in court in front
of a jury. They think they will win. I do too.
In fact, I want the WPRA to win. I not only understand the brief, I
read the supporting exhibits too. Please note I don't support the
fast and furious way the PWBR was created, and that it was created
to cover up the fact that something the PRCA does not own was sold
to a third party.
You say that I can't state legal costs for the WPRA because the WPRA
attorneys are on spec. I did not attempt to state them, and whether
or not their attorney is on spec, why would I care? Getting “a
piece of the pie” can be viewed as a generous way of waiting to be
paid for legal services, i.e., people need legal help now but
can’t afford to pay so something is worked out. Yet you use the
label “ambulance chasers”. Interesting.
Did you know that sometimes attorneys will put liens on homes when
their clients cannot afford the fees so the attorneys have to wait
until the house is sold to be paid? I’ve even seen attorneys cut
their bill in half simply because it was not their client’s fault
that there were additional delays of some sort which resulted in
more billable hours. It depends on the attorney. See, some attorneys
are nicer than others.
Or did you mean to say the PRCA attorneys are on spec? If so, how
did I wind up with their billable hourly rates, and why would Kirk
Skabo say our costs in this case alone are $207,000 as of at the end
of February?
BTW, are these the same attorneys working for us on the Jim Warren
case?
I'm sure this question for an updated legal costs on all cases will
be asked on Tuesday at the general membership meeting ... will you
be there hiding in the crowd?
Last but not least, once again you called me a dangerous demagogue
... well, you are entitled to your opinion, as I am entitled to
mine. At least you got the spelling right.
Best way to reach me is via email: MizKMart@aol.com
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Talbot
Backyard Buckout Champeen
Posts: 50
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posted on 5-5-2007 at 11:11 PM |
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my my my Karen Martin. It appears I hit a
nerve ... again.
The WPRA has now been rebuked by a judge for the second time.
Perhaps next time they will also be hit for filing a frivolous suit
(Ask your lawyer friend to explain the consequences.)
Bob Talbot |
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KarenMartin
State Finalist Champeen
Posts: 239
Registered: 12-3-2006
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: TBD
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posted on 5-6-2007 at 10:40 AM |
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my my my Bob Talbot ... I don’t think so.
I want to add a quick PS to my post above ... in your PS you
referred to the WPRA claim had no merit. If this is indeed true,
then why oh why would I find the testimony of one of the witnesses
who appeared via telephonic appearance so interesting?
The kicker is, I think so will a jury. See people in the real world,
the people who would be sitting in a jury box, will have a problem
with “witness tampering”. Especially when they hear WHO was
doing the alleged tampering.
I also gotta add here how much Aaron Enget’s testimony helps ...
the WPRA.
Anyway ... I see that you want to continue to attempt to confuse the
readers on this website so I better type:
In September 2006 the WPRA filed a lawsuit against the PRCA.
WPRA’s goal was to stop the PRCA from coercing rodeo committees to
drop the WPRA for their barrel race, to ensure that rodeo committees
were free to choose what was best for their rodeo.
The WPRA Board felt it had won their case as the PRCA/PWBR was
forced to create their "joint policy statement". The
statement in simple terms says a rodeo committee is free to choose
who sanctions their barrel race, which was the WPRA's ultimate goal.
They have also had to put out a written statement that judges,
secretaries, and timers are free to work any barrel racing event,
addressing yet another of the PRCA's strong armed tactics to stamp
out the WPRA.
Given that the PRCA backed down from their initial stance and the
WPRA's desire to do what is in the best interests of the sport, the
WPRA asked the court to dismiss the case without prejudice. By
dropping "without prejudice" the WPRA knew that they could
re-file the case at any time should further evidence of PRCA
wrongdoing come to light.
The WPRA dropped their case on January 3.
On January 30 Shorty from Hamel Rodeo, one of PRCA’s Rodeos of the
Year!, posted that their approval had been jerked in 2007 because
they had decided to keep the WPRA.
The PRCA BODs had a board meeting that week in San Antonio and they
were able to take care of this situation. However the problem did
not get resolved until February 12, and only after Shorty had to
notify the BODs that he was still in limbo two weeks after San
Antonio!
The WPRA refiled their lawsuit on February 15.
So Talbot, in my humble opinion I think one could say that when the
WPRA dropped their lawsuit “without prejudice” on January 3 all
they were really doing is giving the PRCA some rope to see how long
it would take them to hang themselves. Less than a month. Guess
WPRA’s strategy worked.
But the bottom line is: If we can’t get this matter SETTLED, a lot
of $$$$$$$ will be paid to the attorneys in the next few months. If
this case goes to trial, it won’t matter what you or I think, but
it will be up to the jury. Based upon information I have which I
will not post ... yet ... and what I have read in the brief, I think
the WPRA is gonna win and should win!
Best way to reach me is via email: MizKMart@aol.com
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RodeoAttitude
Super Administrator
Posts: 275
Registered: 7-1-2005
Location: Maxwell, Iowa
Member Is Online
Mood: No Mood
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posted on 5-6-2007 at 10:49 AM |
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I want to express a few points in here:
First, we do know who is saying what and so do officers of the
court. Enough said.
Second, only one side of this issue has been made public. That was
there decision and we honored it. I have no doubt in my mind that
the new people in charge of the PRCA are doing everything possible
to reach a settlement with the WPRA. There probablly isn't anyone
who wants this issure resolved more than the BOD of the PRCA. Life
is a lot simpler in movies than it is in real life and that is
reality. It would probably be a lot easier if the WPRA and the PRCA
and all the other parties involved could sit down in a medication
and resolve this issue remembering that Troy Ellerman is no longer a
player in the PRCA or in rodeo. He has been found guilty of a crime
and will have to pay the consequences. It is time for rodeo to move
on yes but sadly the BOD of the WPRA and the PRCA are left with a
mess to clean up and everyone involved in rodeo should support their
efforts to do so. I also think that those who want to express their
opinions should make every human effort to attend the meeting on May
8th or at least have a representative there.
[Edited on 5-6-2007 by RodeoAttitude] |
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Bullsrfun
Rookie
Posts: 19
Registered: 2-19-2007
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posted on 5-6-2007 at 04:31 PM |
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The lawsuit was intiated by the WPRA...what
do you expect the PRCA to do, NOT be represented by lawyers and to
have said lawyers protect the association and it's members????
I think Rodeo Attitude has given us some great advise and wisdom. We
simply can not point the finger at past players and question what
has been done or not done. It is apparent to me that the PRCA will
never, ever be able to live up to certain people's standards. Did
you notice how quiet this board got AFTER the Troy incident?? Now
that there is another controversy at the PRCA, guess who is positing
away. Even when it was annouced that there would be a membership
meeting to answer questions and concerns, she found a way to turn
that into the PRCA's fault. With postings such as "we didn't
get our rsvp" and it wasn't posted in the PSN or mailed in a
timely manner"...whah, whah, whah.
How about saying something like "Good for Keith and the current
BOD for taking the time and effort to put on this forum". Let's
be positive!!!!
I think it goes without saying that her sources (I am guessing
Nichols, Adams, McCormack and any other ousted employee were her
main source of inside PRCA gossip) have not been so forthcoming
lately with information, since they too are have their own lawsuits
and battles to fight. Nothing wrong with that at least they threw
their hat into the ring trying to make a difference. It didn't work
out, but it paralells the WPRA/PRCA situation, which at this point
in time, seems to be a good thing for barrel racers in general. They
now have a choice and choices in your professional career and
personal relationships are ALWAYS a good thing. I hope that the nay-sayers
will be at the meeting on Tuesday in the FRONT ROW firing away their
questions and working with the powers that be to come up with
answers, solutions and a future game plan for all of the membership.
To be proud and supportive of the association they profuse to love
and protect. Or will they???? |
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KarenMartin
State Finalist Champeen
Posts: 239
Registered: 12-3-2006
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: TBD
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posted on 5-6-2007 at 08:36 PM |
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I expect the PRCA when it is hit with a
lawsuit to retain attorney(s) in order to protect the interests of
the association. I also expect them to find ways of settling these
cases when possible instead of just writing out checks each and
every month to the attorneys as if money just grows on trees.
What do you mean that we cannot point the finger at past players?
Just WHO do you think got us into this mess with the WPRA as well as
the Jim Warren lawsuit?
Yes it got very quiet on the board after the “Troy incident” ...
you make it sound like he did *nothing wrong* while in office and
only had to resign because of the Balco deal.
Once Troy left the BODs have had to deal with several issues, and
not all have been in the form of a lawsuit ... yet. Why do you think
I posted that we need to give the BODs space and to have faith?
Didn’t you consider this “positive”?
As for giving Keith Martin credit ... on page 2 of the brief, in the
footnote, last line: “However in recent weeks Mr. Ellerman has
been in frequent communication with high ranking past and former
PRCA officials concerning this case.”
Do you have any idea how many people have asked me if I think Troy
is “still calling the shots”?
As for your belief that “the WPRA/PRCA situation, which at this
point in time, seems to be a good thing for barrel racers in
general. They now have a choice and choices in your professional
career and personal relationships are ALWAYS a good thing.”
I beg to differ. We are in this legal mess with the WPRA due to the
way of thinking of “my way or the highway” and/or “if you want
to play you will have to pay” ... or else.
In summary the brief filed by the WPRA alleges:
** We used confidential past and present WPRA member information to
solicit members for the PWBR.
** We used WPRA member qualifications and applied the same
qualification for the PWBR.
** We used the WPRA rule book to create one for the PWBR which
according to Aaron’s testimony was written in 1 day.
** Troy sold the licensing rights of the WPRA to a third party until
2029 and even kept this information regarding the contract secret
from the PRCA Board of Directors.
** We created harassing restrictions to rodeo committees who wanted
to have a WPRA barrel race.
As for whether or not the PRCA continues to meet my personal
standards, please note:
After reading WPRA’s 43 page brief complete with exhibits, as a
long time member of the PRCA I admit that I am feeling ashamed and
embarrassed as to what Troy has done to the WPRA after a long term
relationship.
For me to have confirmation that it was not just a personal vendetta
(like when I heard he told a director he was going to "bury the
WPRA") but rather he was simply doing whatever he wanted to do
while he was in charge. In particular he sold something we did not
own and then had to quickly create a new subsidiary to hide this
fact.
If the WPRA should cease to exist after 60 years, as a dues paying
PRCA member for 19 years I would feel as if I contributed to their
demise because my dues went to pay for our legal costs to do it. So
if the PRCA does not find a way to settle this ASAP -- and to be
honest I don't see why things can't just go back to the way they
were before Troy -- then *IF* the PRCA is counting on my dues next
year to help pay their legal fees and costs they will be S.O.L.
This week I’m buying a WPRA permit for 2007. I can’t think of
any other way to show the WPRA that I feel that what has been done
to them by our PRCA commissioner was illegal, immoral and unethical.
I will not be at the meeting on Tuesday but I have friends who are
members who will be there to ask questions. Will you be there?
Best way to reach me is via email: MizKMart@aol.com
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Bullsrfun
Rookie
Posts: 19
Registered: 2-19-2007
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posted on 5-6-2007 at 09:54 PM |
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I have heard that there is alot of that
going around in rodeo. Acquiring a mailing list and using it for
personal gain or solicitation to another rodeo event/association. As
I mentioned before I was in Oklahoma when the article came out about
the IPRA furious at the management of the World of Rodeo Federation
for doing that exact same thing. I would hope that we were above
that, but if the PRCA was allowing the WPRA members to enter thru
ProCom then their mailing list was in fact the PRCA's to solicite
from or utilize in any way they saw fit.
I am not a member of the PRCA, but a sponsor and I am sure we will
be informed in a professional and timely manner as to what the
meeting and the direction of the PRCA will be. I have confidence in
the BOD and prefer to look forward instead of back. At this point, I
could care less of past mistakes or decisions, NOW is the time to
make a difference . |
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Talbot
Backyard Buckout Champeen
Posts: 50
Registered: 1-21-2007
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posted on 5-6-2007 at 10:09 PM |
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Karen Martin, you really should calm down
before you blow a gasket.
Since the documents are obviously too complicated for you to
comprehend, let me summarize them for you:
As per the very selected documents posted by RA elsewhere on this
web site, the WPRA requested injunctive relief claiming
1) misappropriation
2) tortuous interference
3) future tortuous interference.
Now I will translate for you:
1) Misappropriation - the WPRA claims the PRCA copied their rule
book and used their member list
2) Tortuous interference - they claim the PRCA interfered with
existing contracts, ie rodeos already committed to the WPRA
3) Future tortuous interference - they claim the PRCA will prevent
rodeos from dealing with the WPRA in the future.
Items 2 and 3 are serious enough that if the judge thought they had
merit, he would have granted injunctive relief, in other words, he
would have told the PRCA to stop running PWBR events until the case
was argued in front of a jury. But he dismissed this claim! Full
stop. Which is a loud an clear indicator that even if a jury finds
for the WPRA ... the judges sentence will be very mild and the PWBR
will still be able to continue its business.
Item 1 is a more simple matter. If PWBR is found to have
â€misappropriated’ WPRA’s property, and they can prove they
were hurt financially, the judge will impose a settlement of damages
(ie Money!) ... and that’s it. The PWBR will continue its
business.
What is particularly funny about your ranting and raving is that
from the documents, it appears that the PRCA has covered their
backsides from here to eternity. They warn their circuits against
collusion. They have public letters stating any rodeo may use either
the WPRA or PWBR. And in depositions, they say there is plenty of
room for multiple organizations.
So, Karen Martin, once you finish passing your gas and settle down
... I think you will need to go find another windmill at which to
tilt.
And one last thought. If you really want to be pissed off at anyone
it should be at folks like Mr Warren and the WPRA who file frivolous
lawsuits and force big organizations like PRCA to waste un-Godly
amounts of money defending themselves from small people with
outsized chips on their shoulders.
See you in Moot Court!
Bob Talbot
edited for spelling
[Edited on 5/6/07 by Talbot] |
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KarenMartin
State Finalist Champeen
Posts: 239
Registered: 12-3-2006
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: TBD
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posted on 5-7-2007 at 12:23 AM |
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Bob Talbot, I really appreciate your concern
for my gaskets. Rest assured that I am just fine!
Thank you for typing the above with all that legalese ... my
goodness did I hit a nerve?
I have to admit that as I was reading it I couldn’t help but think
that this looks like classic defense attorney tricks ... clouding
the issues ... attempting to prove reasonable doubt ... trying to
"get me off my game" ... I think the only thing you did
not do is to call me by a wrong name like the PRCA attorney did to
the WPRA attorney Mr. Weiner during the hearing by calling him Mr.
WHINER ... oh plaleeze!
See I figured it would be so easy for you to call me Karen Martian
and then attempt to get people on this board to believe I’m from
another planet since according to you the documents are obviously
too complicated for me to comprehend.
In any case, you and I have both had our say in regards to the
documents in question in this thread, and unless or until things can
be settled between the WPRA and PRCA, the final decision will be up
to a jury.
In the meantime, legal fees and costs will continue to accrue for
both sides.
Karen
::::: Hey folks ... 3 guesses, first 2 don’t count ... wanna guess
as to WHO I have believed for a long time is really behind the
*ALIAS* Bob Talbot? :::::
[Edited on 5/7/07 by KarenMartin]
Best way to reach me is via email: MizKMart@aol.com
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awest
Rookie
Posts: 30
Registered: 1-14-2007
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posted on 5-7-2007 at 11:13 PM |
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Whoa, now Bob... Isn't Jim Warren
representing over 800 PRCA members in his "frivilous"lawsuit?
I doubt that many members just have a chip on their shoulders.
And if you can't see that the PRCA was trying to "bury the WPRA"
by the above information, then you are older and blinder than I
thought you were.
TE knew exactly what he was doing and if he only wanted to start a
"new and improved" barrel racing assoc. they would not
have needed to use everything from the WPRA to do it.
They used the WPRA membership list (not one from the NBHA, National
Barrel Horse Assoc. or any other barrel racing assoc. for that
matter.
They would not have used the WPRA rule book, they would have created
their own. Oh, wait, the WPRA spent 60 years perfecting theirs and
had all the kinks worked out already.
Also they would not have allowed anyone with WPRA card status to got
right to PWBR card status. Shouldn't PWBR had everyone start out at
zero and EARN their cards in their new assoc.?
Lets face it and call a spade a spade, PRCA wanted the barrel race
for themselves and STOLE the WPRA and re-named it the PWBR! End of
story!
Money doesn't buy class.
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Shiela
Rookie
Posts: 10
Registered: 5-8-2007
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posted on 5-8-2007 at 10:02 AM |
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Mr Talbot, since you seem to know all the
legalities of this entire case, please explain to us where in this
whole deal does it make it ok for "mr ellerman" to sell
the licensing rights w/out the WPRA's consent?????
[Edited on 5/8/07 by Shiela]
WPRA- Finding Unity Through Excellence
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D.Rogers
Backyard Buckout Champeen
Posts: 68
Registered: 2-9-2007
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posted on 5-8-2007 at 07:01 PM |
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Hell Karen we all know who Talbot is. He
wont be able to post any more after June 2nd anyway. |
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ProNouncer
Rookie
Posts: 33
Registered: 2-4-2007
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posted on 5-9-2007 at 06:16 AM |
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Here's a bit of encouraging news regarding
legal fees that was presented at the General Membership meeting
yesterday. A man named Larry (I didn't know him, but I'm thinking he
was the PRCA legal consultant) said that yes the legal fees are
substantial, and they are continuing to mount. However, the fees
have been submitted to the insurance company, and a mojority of
those fees should be covered. I guess that large corporations are
able to get insurance against legal matters. I wasn't aware of that,
but it makes sense that they could. So, bottom line, it appears that
even though there are large legal costs involved, the PRCA isn't
having to pay them out of pocket. |
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KarenMartin
State Finalist Champeen
Posts: 239
Registered: 12-3-2006
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: TBD
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posted on 5-9-2007 at 09:58 AM |
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I have a feeling that the guy Larry who you
think was a legal consultant is Lawrence W. Treece, the PRCA
attorney mentioned above.
As for the insurance company, according to our bylaws (I can't find
my rule book right now so I can't post which one) there is supposed
to be a surety bond for $50,000(?). As long as we can prove that the
commissioner did something wrong while he was in office we should be
able to put in a claim.
Best way to reach me is via email: MizKMart@aol.com
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KarenMartin
State Finalist Champeen
Posts: 239
Registered: 12-3-2006
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: TBD
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posted on 5-9-2007 at 12:10 PM |
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ProNouncer’s post resulted in a member
sending me the following email:
“Typically if an insurance company is going to become liable their
legal team will get involved, so where/who is their legal team?
Also, if the insurance company is going to pay would that not be an
admission of guilt?”
Best way to reach me is via email: MizKMart@aol.com
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KarenMartin
State Finalist Champeen
Posts: 239
Registered: 12-3-2006
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: TBD
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posted on 5-9-2007 at 12:47 PM |
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On BHW Shorty posted the following
this morning:
“But the attorney sure wasn't going to pop with the legal fees
amount, was he. He dodged it about 3 times with the part about
submitting claims to the PRCA's insurance. Did you catch that he
either thought, hoped, anticipated that the insurance was going to
cover some of it. Based upon how most of those policies are written
for somebody like the PRCA that might be a fair amount too
optimistic. In any event, the question of what the amount is
certainly could and should have been answered as it was a legitimate
question about association expenses.”
While I am not an insurance expert nor do I claim to be, I do
believe that usually there is coverage for officers and directors of
companies and/or corporations with regards to their fiduciary
responsibilities.
If the insurance company is going to pay because of a breach of
fiduciary responsibility, and if there are on-going legal matters
with regards to that breach, isn't the first thing the insurance
company will do is to appoint their own legal team? Will they pay a
portion of our current legal fees and costs already accrued to date?
Or will they only pick up a bill with their own legal team? Or both?
What exactly is our insurance limits? I think the bylaw was for
$50,000; but did we have more coverage? Based upon Shorty’s post
on BHW the attorney apparently dodged that question.
I can see how the breach of fiduciary responsibility would apply to
Jim Warren’s lawsuit. Actually I find myself wondering whether or
not Jim Warren’s legal fees would also have to be covered under
said insurance policy too. Jim Warren, on behalf of 800 other
members, is suing the PRCA over a breach of fiduciary duty. If a
member sues a member owned organization when all other avenues have
been exhausted, wouldn’t the insurance cover the members who felt
they had no choice but to file a lawsuit?
Now as to the WPRA lawsuit, this case is about misappropriation and
tortuous interference. If the insurance kicks in because it covers
the dishonest acts of the former commissioner, is this not an
admission of guilt?
Based upon the testimony that the legal costs were at $204,000 at
the end of February, and based upon what I figure what was needed
time wise to prepare for the hearing, I’m guesstimating that the
PRCA/WPRA lawsuit would be around $400,000 by now? I do not know how
much the Warren lawsuit costs are to date.
Still, based upon the WPRA and Warren lawsuits, am I the only member
who wonders just what does our insurance cover and what are the
policy limits?
Best way to reach me is via email: MizKMart@aol.com
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Talbot
Backyard Buckout Champeen
Posts: 50
Registered: 1-21-2007
Member Is Offline
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posted on 5-9-2007 at 12:47 PM |
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Karen Martin, Lawrence Treece is one of the
PRCA's lawyers, not a consultant, and he was very clear.
Furthermore, your ignorance of law and corporate governance is
astounding!
I’m waiting to hear your report on the meeting. Keith Martin
answered every single question, including very detailed financial
information, with no-sugar coating. The meeting ended after two
hours when there simply where no more questions. Come on Lois Lane,
give a report to the crowd.
Bob Talbot |
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KarenMartin
State Finalist Champeen
Posts: 239
Registered: 12-3-2006
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: TBD
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posted on 5-9-2007 at 01:01 PM |
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Bob Talbot, I already know that Lawrence
Treece is one of the attorneys retained by the PRCA; this tidbit was
noted at the top of this thread.
Please note it was ProNouncer, a few posts above your last post who
posted, "A man named Larry (I didn't know him, but I'm thinking
he was the PRCA legal consultant) said ...". I only pointed out
to ProNouncer that Larry was probably Lawrence.
As for my report on the meeting, keep on waiting. I was not there
and never said I was going to be there.
But if YOU were there hiding in the crowd, please do not hesitate to
elaborate what exactly happened at the meeting. Inquiring minds want
to know!
Best way to reach me is via email: MizKMart@aol.com
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Talbot
Backyard Buckout Champeen
Posts: 50
Registered: 1-21-2007
Member Is Offline
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posted on 5-9-2007 at 01:12 PM |
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Karen Martin, of course I was there. But
hiding?
How could I possibly hide since you know who I am?
Bob Talbot |
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Bullsrfun
Rookie
Posts: 19
Registered: 2-19-2007
Member Is Offline
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posted on 5-9-2007 at 02:29 PM |
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Yes I agree with Talbot. Karen, you
mentioned that your "friends" would be there loaded with
questions and you gave us no doubt that they would be reporting back
to you with all the pertinent information. So by all means, start
posting away. I thought Keith and his BOD along with Kendra Santos
did an excellent job and to me, these folks are the ones who have
street cred in this business and who will be here loonnnng
after(deleted phrase by monitor) and fired PRCA employees will be.
EXCELLENT MEETING!
[Edited on 5-9-2007 by RodeoAttitude] |
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Shiela
Rookie
Posts: 10
Registered: 5-8-2007
Member Is Offline
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posted on 5-9-2007 at 08:28 PM |
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And one last thought. If you really want to
be pissed off at anyone it should be at folks like Mr Warren and the
WPRA who file frivolous lawsuits and force big organizations like
PRCA to waste un-Godly amounts of money defending themselves from
small people with outsized chips on their
shoulders................................................................................
If this was such a frivolous lawsuit then why did mr ellerman
obviously "hide out" when the WPRA was trying to subpoena
him for deposition???
WPRA- Finding Unity Through Excellence
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KarenMartin
State Finalist Champeen
Posts: 239
Registered: 12-3-2006
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: TBD
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posted on 5-9-2007 at 09:32 PM |
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Shiela, whereas it is true that Mr. Ellerman
could not be found to be served with a subpoena ...
Do you think that had he been found and tesitified that he would be
the most credible witness these days? Keep in mind that he has
admitted that he signed a declaration under penalty of perjury that
he was telling the TRUTH ... and yet it was a LIE.
There is no doubt in my mind that he LIED to his board of directors
while he was in office, and I think the WPRA was able to demonstrate
this fact during the hearing.
As for "frivolous" lawsuits filed by the WPRA and Jim
Warren, just what was the WPRA and the members supposed to do when
all other avenues did not work so they were forced to file a
lawsuit? I don't think it is a matter of small people with outsized
chips on their shoulders, but in my humble opinion it was just one
large male ego.
Best way to reach me is via email: MizKMart@aol.com
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Shiela
Rookie
Posts: 10
Registered: 5-8-2007
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posted on 5-10-2007 at 11:06 AM |
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| Quote: |
Originally posted by Shiela
Mr Talbot, since you seem to know all the legalities of this
entire case, please explain to us where in this whole deal
does it make it ok for "mr ellerman" to sell the
licensing rights w/out the WPRA's consent?????
[Edited on 5/8/07 by Shiela] |
HHHmmmm no answer yet! Oh and Karen,
your last comment about a man with a big ego, too funny!! You know
what they say about men with big egos!!! hehehehe
WPRA- Finding Unity Through Excellence
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WWWorden
Rookie
Posts: 22
Registered: 1-16-2007
Location: WWWashington
Member Is Offline
Mood: Thinking Hard-Hardly Thinking
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posted on 5-13-2007 at 09:46 AM |
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Here's one for the boys. Lets just say that
if needed we could sue the WPRA for all that back money that the
PRCA has GIVEN them over the years. Gee, with all that free money
they should be able to pay it back now. What I fail to see is that
the PRCA has given them all this money and just what in assets have
they given back? Nothing.
In business matters the PWBR member list is a great one to look at.
maybe ask those members why the joined the new Association. Maybe
there are hidden things with the WPRA that made them move? Or maybe,
just maybe, these ladies want to participate in more than one
Professional Association, which means compete at all rodeo's
sanctioned by the PRCA, regardless of the sanctioning body. It sure
would put a big limit of their scheduling and limit the rodeo's in
which they can compete. With any new associations there are
memberships to buy and some of the ladies have done just that, that
is true love of the sport.
"Get Me Off My Game", according to some that is all that
has been done, at all costs, one up-manship and failing to
comprehend simple legal writings.
Mr Talbot, I know who you are and it's very interesting that Karen
has no idea who you are, only thinks that she does. We all know what
happens when she thinks. It's all been a huge game for her as she
keeps mentioning, "get me off my game" to you. People
really shgould read between the lines of all that she writes, it's
her "game".
Oh yes, Insurance pays costs on legal fee's, thought everyone knew
that, guess not. I have it in my business too.
It's been interesting as usual that what I have written in the past
about having faith and patience has now been adopted as Karen's
writings. I never saw it, but I know where i posted it.
You will never please everyone, there are always a few that will
find fault even in the good things that are happening in the PRCA
now. Get over it, Mr Ellerman is no longer at the helm and the
meeting was a great one to be at. If all this "concern"
was really meant then those posting on this board should have been
attendance like some of us were.
Just my nickel opinions and my ten cent thoughts.
Old Bull and Bronc Rider With An Attitude
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KarenMartin
State Finalist Champeen
Posts: 239
Registered: 12-3-2006
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: TBD
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posted on 5-13-2007 at 09:15 PM |
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WW, are you talking about the $100 per girl
that Troy said they owed us? Yes, I remember hearing about that, as
well as the WPRA saying that as soon as the PRCA showed them
documentation to PROVE that they owed it so that they could show it
to their membership in order to get the money from their members to
pay it. But for some reason the PRCA documentation to substantiate
this bill NEVER showed up at the WPRA office.
I bet you are still a TE supporter who will say that TE brought the
PRCA out of the brink of bankruptcy single-handedly. Uh huh. How was
this done again? I’ll give you a hint: member dues went up,
Gold-Card members were forced to pay full dues in 2006, stock
contractors are paying more money for various reasons, 5% of the
total entry fees AND added monies are held out of rodeo payoffs
instead of the 3% withheld in the past, etc. Nothing like getting
the PRCA out of the red by having its own members pay for it one way
or another. So while he was at it, he figured to charge the WPRA
$100 per member too.
Would you pay a $100 bill x each member of your family without being
shown proof that you actually owe it in the first place?
How about when the $100 increases to $200 “just because”? Again,
with no documentation or proof for the initial request for $100!
I heard that Troy told a WPRA director he was going to “bury the
WPRA” unless they pay their bill ... and when they balked at
unsubstantiated $100 he increased it to $200 ...
Then POOF! the PWBR was created. Course now during discovery in the
WPRA vs. PRCA lawsuit the highlights of the PRT contract are seeing
the light of day. On page 6 I see that Troy SOLD the WPRA barrel
racing licensing rights that the PRCA DID NOT OWN to PRT for 30
years!!!
Do you know how to spell illegal? How about immoral? Unethical?
I wonder what he could possibly say to the membership in order to
get cowboys to back him up without questioning him whatsoever while
he was covering his own butt of this illegal action by creating our
own little subsidiary. Oh I know, TE will just say “they owe us
$$$$ ... if they want to play they have to pay!”
BTW, why would Troy sell the licensing rights for all events for 25
years? Why not start off with 5 years? 10? Then renegotiate the
contract? Wanna bet it was because he sold our licensing rights for
pennies on the dollar? PENNIES!
If you still want to believe everything that Troy said, you go right
ahead. For me I think everything is suspect and needs to be
investigated ... wanna bet that over a million dollars in legal fees
from both associations (this includes Warren’s lawsuit) have been
spent in order to clean up the mess that Troy made to date to our
rodeo community?
By the way, 2 more lawsuits are in the works. Once again thanks to
Troy. But it is OK, we have $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Good thing because we
could be in legal litigation for a long time thanks to Troy.
Someone else said it best, “I don’t trust anything that Troy has
ever said now, and I wouldn't believe anything he wrote on a
bathroom wall either”.
Re your comment, “Oh yes, Insurance pays costs on legal fee's,
thought everyone knew that, guess not. I have it in my business
too.” Well for argument sake, I find it interesting to note that
on another website, Shorty, also a business man posted: “Regarding
insurance coverages - it is common for coverage in certain areas to
protect against losses but NOT to cover the defense/legal fees. We
have numerous such coverages in my business (and that is typical).
For example, a BOND is a form of insurance but not the same animal
as automobile liability INSURANCE. Then there are cost of defense
riders - point is whether or not fees are covered can be a very
tricky question and the insurance company holds the best hand to
draw to. The lawyer was careful to point out a claim had been
submitted rather than the costs (or a portion of them) were covered
by insurance."
As for the approx 800? members of the PWBR, most, not all, also hold
current WPRA cards. Don’t you find it a tad interesting that all
WPRA 2,000 members did not immediately join up? I also don’t think
that it was a matter that something must be wrong with the WPRA but
more along the lines of if someone has a horse that they think can
get them to the NFR this year, they have to run PWBR. *NO* choice.
As for you saying we all need to have faith and be patient with the
BODs ... you might have said it, but I don’t know if you were the
first one, but I know that you are not the only one. It is COMMON
SENSE. Still I find it interesting that you want to take credit for
it though. Whatever WW.
Just my nickel opinions and my ten cent thoughts ~
[Edited on 5/14/07 by KarenMartin]
Best way to reach me is via email: MizKMart@aol.com
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Bullsrfun
Rookie
Posts: 19
Registered: 2-19-2007
Member Is Offline
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posted on 5-14-2007 at 12:55 PM |
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Troy is gone and we ALL need to move on.
Quite frankly, all these lawsuits just make rodeo look silly. The
IPRA is also struggling with some snakes in the grass, who promised
and never delilvered and only ended up hurting their membership even
more. I think it's been made clear that Karen will never like the
PRCA and it's decisions. I have waited to hear what her loyal
friends had reported back to her from the membership meeting, but
have yet to see it! Folks like Keith Martin and Steve Gilbert get
standing ovations and pats on the back for doing the best they can
with what they have to work with are the true believers of prorodeo.
They deserve credit because they are trying to support the very
association that is their livelyhood. I think Karen has said that
the PRCA is not her bread and butter, she is just a concerned
member. Maybe if it was her only source of income she would have
more loyality and respect for the membership and it's sponsors.
Where do sponsors put their dollars when so much negativity and
distrust is out there in rodeoland?? WE DON'T.......could be the
answer and it hasn't happend yet, but it will be a sad day when one
of the
biggie sponsors goes to another sport and says adios to rodeo.
However, it won't be because of the reports and opinions of one
photographer in California, but because they will honestly think
that rodeo (which includes barrel racing and bullriding) is
finished. Is that what we all want??? |
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awest
Rookie
Posts: 30
Registered: 1-14-2007
Member Is Offline
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posted on 5-14-2007 at 01:09 PM |
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I understand what you are saying about rodeo
looking bad to sponsors, but rodeo has to show they have some
integrity if they want to show sponsors they are still a great
sport.
Bullsrfun, you keep saying we have to move on, what TE did is over,
yada yada, yada. But there are murderers on death row saying the
same thing, but it doesn't work like that. The PRCA still has to be
responsibke for what TE did and they still have to clean up his
terrible mess. I'm so happy that the BoD is doing all they can and
the membership is finally being treated the way they should be. But
that doesn't mean that the PRCA can walk away from what they did to
the WPRA.
Also Warden, you are so misinformed and lost on your WPRA info. I
thank you for the great laugh I got out of how the PRCA "gave"money
to the WPRA. Now that's a funny one!!
Money doesn't buy class.
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Shiela
Rookie
Posts: 10
Registered: 5-8-2007
Member Is Offline
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posted on 5-14-2007 at 03:08 PM |
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HHmmm, free money?? I think before you make
statements like that you better have some proof to back it up
because that is not even close. I don’t believe the PRCA was
writing checks to the WPRA. I do know that the PRCA took 15% off the
top of any sponsorship dollar the WPRA received before it could even
get into their bank account. I know that WPRA members paid in at Pro
Com over 3 times what PRCA members did each time a WPRA member
entered. Up until just last year the WPRA bought $30,000 worth of
gold buckle seats at the NFR to help pay for the expenses. The 200$,
yes it was 200$ that they requested only after the WPRA heard
through the rumor mill, would have been paid in an instant if the
numbers would have been shown. Why do you suppose they were not
revealed?? If you read the brief you can see that it was
ellerman’s plan from the start to get "rid" of the WPRA
because the actual contract drawn up with LVE had no part of the
WPRA mentioned. This would have been before the 200$ proposal, so I
am assuming the 200$ was just a diversion in hopes that the WPRA
would decline. Maybe ask Mr. Feller about that one, he can fill you
in. They wanted them gone. The WPRA did not take troy's word (hehe-
troys word, what a statement) all they asked for was proof. I also
question that insurance policy that has been thrown out there. Not a
real believer in that either. Unless you can get actual proof I
think I would mark it as possible but not probable.
I think Karen has done an excellent job getting the truth out. You
are so very critical of her on this board and yet she always
responds in a tactful yet responsible way. I thank her for what she
has done. And I know who her sources are also and she has been
spreading the truth from the start. Personally I don’t care who
Talbot is or anyone for that matter. All I want to read and see is
facts and truth, not BS or propaganda.
What about that little deal of selling the WPRA’s licensing rights
for 27 years?? Where is that legal? Regardless of where this
situation ends up there will be money paid for that. Please
elaborate on the “hidden things with the WPRA” mentioned in a
previous post. Remember who you are talking about, the WPRA does not
hide things from their members. I would like to know what these
hidden things are mentioned. Please fill me in!
The PWBR member list is a great one to look at?? That would be all
WPRA members’ right? Past and present WPRA world champions, past
and present WPRA NFR qualifiers, past and present WPRA circuit
champions, past and present WPRA DNCFR champions, oh and how about
those “also-rans”. The ones who pay the bills.
One thing we all have to remember is that the PRCA, WPRA, or the
PWBR does not own these arenas and put up the prize money, the
committees do and they are the ones who are give us the opportunity
to rodeo. NOT THE PRCA. They are the ones who give this sport a
chance. The PRCA does not give the contestants all that prize money
to run at the committees do. The PRCA does not provide an arena to
rope a calf or ride a bull or run a set of barrels in, the
committees do. They provide an arena for the PRCA to advertise their
sponsors and hang their banners. The PRCA does not provide that free
meal at the hospitality tent, the committees do and they can do the
same with or without the PRCA. I think this has been forgotten in
this mess.
Once again it comes down to what is fair and what is legal. Had
ellerman done this the right way we would not be having this
discussion. BUT he did it the ellerman way! Who are you kidding when
you say ellerman is out?? It has been documented that he is still
there. He has called guys that were giving their deposition calling
them "sell-outs" and asking them to do what he is so good
at doing. (You can guess on that one.) Unfortunately he is still out
there slithering around but all I can say is that the WPRA is
standing somewhere behind a tree with a shovel and you know what
happens when a women carrying a shovel does to a snake when it gets
too close!!
Excellent post awest!! I agree with you 100%!!! Not in any way
against the PRCA but to restore its integrity and name they need to
make right the things that have been done and until the day they do
that they are still not completely trustworthy. The new BOD is doing
a great job and I know it takes time and I commend them on their
efforts so far but more needs to be done and time and money is
running out!
[Edited on 5/14/07 by Shiela]
[Edited on 5/14/07 by Shiela]
[Edited on 5/14/07 by Shiela]
WPRA- Finding Unity Through Excellence
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WWWorden
Rookie
Posts: 22
Registered: 1-16-2007
Location: WWWashington
Member Is Offline
Mood: Thinking Hard-Hardly Thinking
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posted on 5-15-2007 at 09:55 PM |
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With the subsidiary of the PWBR, the PRCA
will no longer hand out 4 million dollars to the WBRA which in the
past has caused a decline in the total revenues of the PRCA. A
hundred buck a head for each member of the WBRA would not even come
close to the numbers of dollars that the PRCA has given to them.
It's in black and white for all to read , a 3rd grader could read
it, comprehend it and undrerstand it.
I have been asking everyone since my first post to have patience and
faith until everything got played out and taken care of and have
reiterated that every time a new subject came up. Many have stomped
their feet with the " I want it now" tantrum throwing 3rd
grader mentalities. I support who the voters vote into their
respective positions until they give me reason not to trust or
believe in their abilities, honesty or ethics. That's why it is
called voting for the best candidates.
I agree with Bullsrfun, it's time to move forward, get over
yourselves and quit harping about a man who has no hands in the pot
of the PRCA business any longer. If for some reason he is lurking
around then it looks as if we need to fire the whole lot of those
still there and do a complete reorganization. I also agree with
Bullsrfun on his last question he posted. I believe that those still
concerned about the past commisioner have lost focus on what the
PRCA really is all about, what it stands for and where it can go.
It's a game to them as has been stated time and again, reiterated by
rumor, innuendo, half truths and a hidden agenda. 15 minutes of fame
just doesn't seem to be enough, ego's ride higher than loyalty.
Sheila be careful who you run with and trust, the knife may not be
felt at first but it is there.
~PS~ I look dang good in my tights, they aren't Queen size or Triple
X. Niether are Talbots!
Old Bull and Bronc Rider With An Attitude
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Shiela
Rookie
Posts: 10
Registered: 5-8-2007
Member Is Offline
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posted on 5-16-2007 at 07:58 AM |
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Still don't get it?? Where was the PRCA
giving out all that money? Maybe you can show me and I can say I was
wrong and join the “tighty whitey” little boys gang. As I said
in my past post, just want to see facts and truth no BS. Prove to me
then. I guess I must only be in 2nd grade since it is 3rd grade
mentality. Once again I will say, you are drinking cool-aid if you
think Troy is gone. Let’s stop saying it because the facts are out
there and it has been admitted that he is still in contact with
several. Just so you know I am over my self and I am trying to move
forward by wanting this WPRA issue resolved. If you want to keep
paying legal fees to the “dream team” then hey lets do it but
for the best of the PRCA and WPRA it needs to be resolved sooner
than later. I have not lost focus on this issue, I guarantee you and
everyone else that my focus is very strong and passionate and I will
continue to feel this way unless you can prove to me differently.
Come on show me where the PRCA was giving the WPRA free money?????
Stand up in your cute little tights and write some numbers on the
chalkboard and then we can have snack time and show and tell after!
WPRA- Finding Unity Through Excellence
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awest
Rookie
Posts: 30
Registered: 1-14-2007
Member Is Offline
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posted on 5-16-2007 at 12:04 PM |
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Oh, wwworden, I am still giggling about all
these checks you actually think the PRCA signed to the WPRA. The
PRCA never, ever, has GIVEN a red cent to the WPRA.
But please do enlighten us with this secret info, I am dying to know
what the WPRA did with those millions of dollars!
Money doesn't buy class.
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WWWorden
Rookie
Posts: 22
Registered: 1-16-2007
Location: WWWashington
Member Is Offline
Mood: Thinking Hard-Hardly Thinking
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posted on 5-16-2007 at 04:51 PM |
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What baffles me is that you have no idea how
your organization is run or where they have gotten some of their
money. It has been in every report from the PRCA, so saying that the
PRCA has never given them any money is a ludicrous statement to
make. It has been in every report and was the reason for making the
PWBR part of the PRCA. That means that the PRCA does not have to
shell out any more money to the WPRA and keep the millions within
it's own business budget and get something in return. You really
need to do some reading and research into your own organization and
maybe start asking questions of the WPRA. It's funny to me that you
laugh about the PRCA giving millions to the WPRA. What I find funny
is that you have no clue about the organization that you defend.It's
interesting that you say that there has never been any money given
to the WPRA by the PRCA when the restof us all know that it is a
true and documented fact. Look into your own organization, ask them
hat they did with it and where it went.
Go to the PRCA website and look it all up like the rest of us have
done. information straight from the horses mouth is better
information from a horses you know what.
Good Day ladies and happy hunting, awest when you find the answer as
to what the WPRA did with all those millions, please inform the men
of the PRCA, we'd like to know too. It's all there to read in black
and white with no sugar coating or BS.
Old Bull and Bronc Rider With An Attitude
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Shiela
Rookie
Posts: 10
Registered: 5-8-2007
Member Is Offline
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posted on 5-16-2007 at 07:31 PM |
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DUDE, WHAT ARE
YOU TALKING ABOUT? Seriously,
where are you finding this?? No where has, did, tried, whatever you
want to say, the PRCA written checks to the WPRA. Put down
the pipe and slowly walk away!
WPRA- Finding Unity Through Excellence
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SpringFling
Backyard Buckout Champeen
Posts: 56
Registered: 4-3-2006
Location: Out To Pasture
Member Is Offline
Mood: Broncy
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posted on 5-17-2007 at 08:36 AM |
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I've read the PRCA financial statements. IF
the PRCA was giving the WPRA that much money, it would have been on
the financial statements. No mention of it whatsoever. HHHmmmm....I
suppose it could be true. The financial statements for several years
were LIES, showing the PRCA in good financial position, when it was
really several million in the hole. |
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Inyureye
Rookie
Posts: 2
Registered: 5-14-2007
Location: Arkansas
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posted on 5-17-2007 at 11:56 AM |
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Propagaanda
| Quote: |
Originally posted by WWWorden
What baffles me is that you have no idea how your
organization is run or where they have gotten some of their
money. It has been in every report from the PRCA, so saying
that the PRCA has never given them any money is a ludicrous
statement to make. It has been in every report and was the
reason for making the PWBR part of the PRCA. That means that
the PRCA does not have to shell out any more money to the
WPRA and keep the millions within it's own business budget
and get something in return. You really need to do some
reading and research into your own organization and maybe
start asking questions of the WPRA. It's funny to me that
you laugh about the PRCA giving millions to the WPRA. What I
find funny is that you have no clue about the organization
that you defend.It's interesting that you say that there has
never been any money given to the WPRA by the PRCA when the
restof us all know that it is a true and documented fact.
Look into your own organization, ask them hat they did with
it and where it went.
Go to the PRCA website and look it all up like the rest of
us have done. information straight from the horses mouth is
better information from a horses you know what.
Good Day ladies and happy hunting, awest when you find the
answer as to what the WPRA did with all those millions,
please inform the men of the PRCA, we'd like to know too.
It's all there to read in black and white with no sugar
coating or BS. |
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CCW
Rookie
Posts: 1
Registered: 5-18-2007
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posted on 5-18-2007 at 10:02 AM |
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most
definatly propagaanda!
I honestly don't know where WWWorden thinks
the PRCA ever gave money to the WPRA! Because he read it in the PSN?
he has to be kidding. First off, they don't have money to give away,
and like Sheila pointed out, the PRCA takes their 15% right off the
top of sponsorship money. Where does WWWorden think the added money
comes from, for the rodeos? Not the PRCA. The Committees put up that
money, plus the WPRA had their own approval fees. The PRCA wouldn't
allow the WPRA to get their own sponsorships or added money. No
doubt, afraid the women would be running at more money than the men!
The PRCA pitched a fit the year Charmayne wore their precious #1 on
her back! and they made sure it never happend again! |
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RodeoAttitude
Super Administrator
Posts: 275
Registered: 7-1-2005
Location: Maxwell, Iowa
Member Is Online
Mood: No Mood
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posted on 5-21-2007 at 01:28 PM |
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Again I think we have hashed this one over
enough. Thread is closed. Anyone with new infomration that is new
and relevant may post a new thread. Thank you. |
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| START OF NEW TOPIC |
SpringFling
Backyard Buckout Champeen
Posts: 54
Registered: 4-3-2006
Location: Out To Pasture
Member Is Offline
Mood: Broncy
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posted on 3-14-2007 at 12:12 PM |
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BALCO'S
Singing Cowboy
http://www.law.com/jsp/ca/PubArticleCA.jsp?id=1173776617352
It's interesting what you can find on the internet. |
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Happy
Rookie
Posts: 21
Registered: 1-11-2007
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posted on 3-17-2007 at 06:20 PM |
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Very informative. Should be required reading
for all members!
A part of the irony of it all: He had no qualms about wearing a wire
for the F.B.I. but when he found out he was being taped, calling the
ladies in the office,"small minded, territorial bitches"
it was a whole different ball game. Isn't that called Karma? What
goes around , comes around?
Ellerman and McCormack: Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dumb.
The diffrence is: One of them is headed for prison.
The other is demanding .5 million dollars.
You decide who deserves what? |
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Talbot
Rookie
Posts: 43
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posted on 3-17-2007 at 09:19 PM |
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Quote from the article:
As Ellerman put it in the disciplinary letter, one hall employee
"specifically was concerned with a threat you made to kill me
with a shovel."
Cowboy Up ... Larry.
Bob Talbot |
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| START OF NEW TOPIC |
RodeoAttitude
Super Administrator
Posts: 256
Registered: 7-1-2005
Location: Maxwell, Iowa
Member Is Online
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posted on 2-20-2007 at 10:09 AM |
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Troy
Ellerman resigns as PRCA commissioner
Press Release Courtesy of the PRCA
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. – On February 19, Troy Ellerman resigned
as PRCA commissioner. In a letter of resignation addressed to the
PRCA Board of Directors, Ellerman stated, “Due to the fact that I
have entered a plea of guilty in the BALCO case, I believe it is in
the best interest of the PRCA to resign from my position as
commissioner. My resignation will be effective immediately. It has
been an honor to serve the PRCA. The PRCA is well served by a strong
Board of Directors, and I am confident it will continue to move
forward under its direction.”
The PRCA Board accepted Ellerman’s resignation with deep
appreciation for his efforts in returning the PRCA to financial
health.
“We appreciate Troy’s hard work and dedication to the PRCA
during his tenure as PRCA commissioner,” stated PRCA Chairman of
the Board Keith Martin. “Thanks in part to his leadership, the
PRCA achieved a multi-million-dollar financial turnaround, and is
now strong, stable and in position for solid growth.”
In the upcoming days and weeks, the PRCA Board of Directors will
work diligently on plans to keep the association moving in a
positive direction. Chairman of the Board Martin will serve
temporarily as the interim chief executive officer of the PRCA. |
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ProNouncer
Rookie
Posts: 29
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posted on 2-20-2007 at 10:21 AM |
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I read on another board that the BOD voted
to give him a year's severance pay. Any word on that? It would stand
to reason that they did. Cryer walked out with a pocketfull, as did
Hatchell. |
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KarenMartin
State Finalist Champeen
Posts: 194
Registered: 12-3-2006
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: TBD
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posted on 2-20-2007 at 10:45 AM |
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To think that just the other day I posted
that my days of my political posts were winding down ... obviously I
have yet to get started!!!!!
I want to see if what is on BHW that Troy Ellerman resigned and then
was given a years severance pay – is this fact or fiction??????
If it is a fact, I want to know:
WHAT BOARD MEMBER WOULD MAKE A MOTION FOR TROY TO BE PAID A
SEVERANCE??????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I want to know:
WHAT BOARD MEMBERS VOTED FOR IT???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I want to know:
HOW CAN A NON-PROFIT CORPORATION IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
WITH A FELON ******WHO RESIGNS***** and could have BOARD MEMBERS WHO
PAY SAID FELON A SEVERANCE??????!!!!!!
IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, ANY ONE WHO VOTED TO PAY HIM A SALARY,
ESPECIALLY A YEARS SEVERANCE, NEEDS TO BE OFF THAT BOARD
IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!
[Edited on 2/20/07 by KarenMartin]
Best way to reach me is via email: MizKMart@aol.com
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Bullsrfun
Rookie
Posts: 14
Registered: 2-19-2007
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posted on 2-20-2007 at 11:41 AM |
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This is over!!!!!!!
Whether or not he got servernce is really none of our business.
After all, IF he goes to jail his kids have to have a place to eat
and sleep or does that not matter.
Let's also keep in mind that the PRCA is financial stable AGAIN
thanks to Mr. Ellerman!!!
Karen, it looks like your 15 mintues is OVER too! You have not come
out of this unscathed! From what I understand from the general
media....you are a enemy of prorodeo and not to be trusted. |
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PRCA
Rookie
Posts: 12
Registered: 2-6-2007
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posted on 2-20-2007 at 12:02 PM |
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First of all I am not friendly with Km but
who the hell is the general media and how is she an enemy of
prorodeo? I am just trying to clarify some things here is all. I
would'nt know the woman if she walked up and stepped on my foot but
she has asked some very good questions. So please Mr./Ms. Bullsrfun,
elighten us. Or could it be that YOU are the general media and that
general media goes by PSN. |
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KarenMartin
State Finalist Champeen
Posts: 194
Registered: 12-3-2006
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: TBD
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posted on 2-20-2007 at 12:16 PM |
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Sorry, but IMHO I don't think this is over.
It is not that I do not care about Mr. Ellerman's family, but he
knew what he was doing was illegal he just did not think he would
get caught. He did. Not my fault. Therefore he was not thinking
about his own family at the time he did these things.
I can't believe that when a FELON resigns he should then be given a
severence check -- for a full year -- especially when there are new
criminal allegations against him while he was in office which could
result in another lawsuit against the PRCA.
So I picked up the phone this morning and called every one of the
numbers below. I either spoke to or left voicemail messages; I
suggest other members do the same so they know how the membership
feels about this matter. They need to hear from the membership --
*NOW* is the time.
But for now I have confirmed that there is a severence check. I also
have been advised that Tom Feller made the motion and Kelly Wardell
seconded it. The vote was not unanimous. Keith Martin has the
minutes of the meeting -- I for one would like to see the minutes
ASAP.
Also, two of the board members below confirmed that they just got
Mr. McCormack's letter today and one has yet to receive it. I told
them that some of the confidential information in said demand letter
is on this website, one of them was upset to hear it.
It should not be a surprise that I also asked that they stop the
check until they can revisit this issue now that Mr. McCormack's
letter has been received. Even though I have not seen or read the
demand letter, upon information and belief, Mr. McCormack has
documentation to back up his claims. Therefore the board will need
to meet to discuss this new matter on the table.
In case you do not have your PSN handy:
Tom Feller 817.332.4385
Kelly Wardell 208.788.9882
Bret Tonozzi 970.585.7364
Charles Soileau 817.559.4143
Buster Record 580.727.4294
Keith Martin 210.225.5851
Troy Weekly 954.680.8005
John Barnes 712.446.2656
Steve Gilbert 435.635.7628
[Edited on 2/21/07 by KarenMartin]
Best way to reach me is via email: MizKMart@aol.com
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PRCA
Rookie
Posts: 12
Registered: 2-6-2007
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posted on 2-20-2007 at 12:31 PM |
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Hell Troy aka Talbot leaked the confidential
info to this site!! I am seeing a pattern here. |
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Bullsrfun
Rookie
Posts: 14
Registered: 2-19-2007
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posted on 2-20-2007 at 12:45 PM |
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As I mentioned before I do not have a vested
interest like most of the wonderful folks here on these rodeo
message boards, but when I asked a few prominent rodeo folks who I
know and respect in this business, they told me not to believe
everything I read, especially if it's posted by "that rolly,
polly Karen Martin"..(not my words either)
I also do not know a PSN, so would not refer to him/her.
Again, I say..IT'S OVER!!! |
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KarenMartin
State Finalist Champeen
Posts: 194
Registered: 12-3-2006
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: TBD
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posted on 2-20-2007 at 12:49 PM |
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PSN = Prorodeo Sports News
All the above numbers are listed on the PRCA business pages. I just
figured it would be best to make the names and numbers handy as I'm
sure I'm not the only member who was upset to hear that we are
giving him a "gift" under the circumstances.
Best way to reach me is via email: MizKMart@aol.com
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LJ
Rookie
Posts: 1
Registered: 2-19-2007
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posted on 2-20-2007 at 12:55 PM |
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Disclaimer. I do not know Karen Martin. It
is not the responsibility of the PRCA to "take care of Mr.
Ellerman's family". That is Mr. Ellerman's responsibility. He
might have been better served had HE considered what effects HIS
actions would have on HIS family. I personally feel very sorry for
his family, but it is still not the responsibilty of the PRCA. Also,
it is my understanding that Mr. Ellerman is the reason Larry
McCormack became associated with the PRCA in the first place. So, if
you want to blame or thank someone for Mr. McCormack being
associated with the PRCA, blame or thank Troy Ellerman. I was so
hoping that someone would step forward and try to make the PRCA the
GREAT association it used to be. However, after reading an article
that was in the Ft. Worth Star Telegram on Sunday, February 18,
written by Brett Hoffman, I don't see that happening. If this is the
new attitude of the PRCA, they are in trouble. |
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KarenMartin
State Finalist Champeen
Posts: 194
Registered: 12-3-2006
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: TBD
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posted on 2-20-2007 at 01:26 PM |
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I can only speak for myself, and as a member
I felt I had to call each board member this morning so I did. I have
no control over what any other PRCA member does at this point, but I
do know that I am in shock after hearing the news. Yes if I have to
accept it fine, but at least I know I picked up the phone.
I know that the BODs have a lot of things ahead of them -- and they
are the ones that have to deal with these things one by one. I also
told some of them that I think they need to SLOW DOWN and THINK
before they act -- because I was sure that the membership is
definitely going to react to hearing the news re the years severance
pay. I did.
Best way to reach me is via email: MizKMart@aol.com
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western1
Rookie
Posts: 5
Registered: 2-19-2007
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posted on 2-20-2007 at 01:31 PM |
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Ft Worth article http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/16728189.htm
I assume this is what LJ was referring to |
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awest
Rookie
Posts: 23
Registered: 1-14-2007
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posted on 2-20-2007 at 03:03 PM |
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Ok here I go with my 2 cents worth...First
like a few said before, the PRCA does not owe Ellerman's family
anything, the PRCA did not get him into this mess, ELLERMAN DID!
This is money from the membership, dues and many fines paid by the
membership going to a man that committed this crime. He was
definatley not hinking of his family at the time he opened his yap
to the the reporters.
I don't think McCormick is a saint either. He knew what Ellerman did
all along and didn't say anything until he and Ellerman had a
falling out.
I also have been told that Ellerman wrote his own contract when he
took the comish. job and he set his salary at $400,000 a year.
Pretty big check to hand over to someone to "help out"
their family. I know a lot of cowboys who have also done a lot for
the PRCA that are having hard times and didn't commit a felony that
could sure use some of that money, why not help those guys out too?
As for that newspaper article, I think its a slap in the face to the
other how many thousands of members that are below 70th position.
Money doesn't buy class.
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StoneyBurke
Rookie
Posts: 9
Registered: 2-15-2007
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posted on 2-20-2007 at 03:46 PM |
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KM
You going to kick six members off of the Board?
Ok stop the check, what good is that going to do? A judge will make
you honor the check because you wrote it in the first place. Then a
lawsuit wanting all the money just not part of it, so there is more
money, more time, and another black eye, KM you always stated the
PRCA has never won a court case, well hell.....Troy should sue the
PRCA for his whole contract, and since the PRCA has never won a
lawsuit, who will loose then Nancy Drew?
You have been after Troy, the Board of Directors, but why never the
office, or its personnel. Are you on that pay roll as well?
I'm glad you got your money worth renewing your card, with all your
hard work here and other places, have you sold more pictures or get
a job timing?
What are you and Spring Fling going to do now?
Can we be positive and help the PRCA, instead of all this crap!!!! |
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awest
Rookie
Posts: 23
Registered: 1-14-2007
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posted on 2-20-2007 at 04:09 PM |
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WOW this is a little harsh don't you think
Eddy?
KM didn't hold a gun to Ellerman's head and force him to talk to
those reporters. I think he is responsible for any food being taken
out of the mouths of his children. He has no one to blame but
himself. I feel sorry for his family, they didn't ask for this. But
Troy brought this on himself, and now its time to pay the piper.
Money doesn't buy class.
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SpringFling
Rookie
Posts: 42
Registered: 4-3-2006
Location: Out To Pasture
Member Is Offline
Mood: Broncy
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posted on 2-20-2007 at 04:45 PM |
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| Quote: |
Originally posted by StoneyBurke
What are you and Spring Fling going to do now?
Can we be positive and help the PRCA, instead of all this
crap!!!! |
Stoney,
You know nothing about me or Karen, except what some bitter old man
has to post here and elsewhere. Who, for the record does not know
me, wouldn't know me if I walked up and handed him $200,000.
You want positive. We're going to see some EXTREMELY positive
changes when the next election rolls around.
Karen & I, and several others have done nothing but positive for
the PRCA.
About 2 1/2 years ago, I received a fax. A very important fax and I
posted the information here, on other websites, and emailed it to
everyone I knew. It wasn't long until certain board members were
calling me, thanking me, and giving me more information to pass
along. Guess, what??? The PRCA was in a financial hole and no one
knew about it. Not even the BOD!!! ONE of the men responsible
resigned IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NFR!!! The other man responsible took
over as commissioner.
Karen just took things a step further than I did and called board
members, etc., to confirm information. She stirred nothing up. If it
wasn't her or I telling everyone to look at the bottom of the glass,
the sediment (crap) would just keep getting deeper.
BALCO is all Troy's doing and SHOULD have nothing to do with the
PRCA. Since he was the Commissioner, it's going to whether we like
it or not. Just like Ken Lay is always going to be associated with
Enron. Dead or alive. Of course, the PRCA will always just be a
footnote, since it isn't a "major" sport.
Troy knew exactly what he was doing when he did it. It is no one's
fault but his own, and I, & all the PRCA members, should not
have to pay for it. Especially since it was done BEFORE he was a
paid PRCA employee.
As for what I'm going to do now...don't worry your pretty little
head about it. I'll do what I've been doing for the last 35+ years.
Head down the rodeo trail, to the next one...
First - I'll be voting in the election, and sending it by certified
mail.
[Edited on 2/20/07 by SpringFling] |
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SpringFling
Rookie
Posts: 42
Registered: 4-3-2006
Location: Out To Pasture
Member Is Offline
Mood: Broncy
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posted on 2-20-2007 at 05:34 PM |
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BTW - Nobody believed me and called several
names that Karen has been called. By A LOT of the same people.
Stick & stones, and all that.....
In the end, I was proven right. Where there's smoke there's fire. I
prefer to not have to fight fires in the PRCA. I have enough of them
outside rodeo.
Karen has been proven right this time, and there are those that just
can't accept it.
There are those of us that prefer to look to the future, and others
that keep dragging up the past. And a past that is mostly
irrelevant. |
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RodeoAttitude
Super Administrator
Posts: 256
Registered: 7-1-2005
Location: Maxwell, Iowa
Member Is Online
Mood: No Mood
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posted on 2-20-2007 at 08:18 PM |
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Rodeo Attitude member Josh Peter who is also
a sports reporter for Yahoo.com has posted the following story:
http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=jo-ellerman022007&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
This story confirms what is being posted above. |
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StoneyBurke
Rookie
Posts: 9
Registered: 2-15-2007
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posted on 2-20-2007 at 09:57 PM |
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Karen and Crystal
You guys look right thru my posts and never answer my questions
except when I single you out, but never the question that concern
matters with the PRCA, as you all expect everyone else too, every
time you say jump.
How are you going to replace 6 Directors?
What about the issues with Headquarters? One for example is Pro-com,
which Crystal you should know all about this, Two Secretaries in the
same house hold , and you both attended the Secretary Meeting in
Vegas, what about Betsy Harris’s problems, along with several
other Secretaries in the PRCA. Or the Circuit Secretaries: Nancy
Jane and Linda Alsbaugh issues.
On another thread here on RA, there is a deal about what John Davis
did.
What about Hamel and other rodeos approvals.
And what about our Long Haired Dakota Boy? He’s a dandy!!!
Why did Allan and Jack leave?
I feel those are the issues you guys need to work on!!
We all know KM and McCormack is going to Hollywood and star in a new
PI show!!! Probably look like one of Ellen D's commericals..
I’m sure there will be changes in the elections coming up, stock
contractors and contract personnel and committees.
Haven't heard who all that is running for councils, I'm sure you
guys know. Heard your mother wanted to run.
Some of the things KM started that tried to hurt Troy and the PRCA,
i.e. IRS and others will probably come back and haunt the rest of
the membership of the PRCA, one way or the other.
Wish your mother luck in her election for council
[Edited on 2/21/07 by StoneyBurke] |
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KarenMartin
State Finalist Champeen
Posts: 194
Registered: 12-3-2006
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: TBD
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posted on 2-21-2007 at 09:19 AM |
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| Quote: |
Originally posted by StoneyBurke
Some of the things KM started that tried to hurt Troy and
the PRCA, i.e. IRS and others will probably come back and
haunt the rest of the membership of the PRCA, one way or the
other.
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Stoney:
Wow, right after SpanishEddy says that he is not going to mention me
again, his very next post is like he finally opened his eyes: Not
only because as he just noted you are bringing up so many problems
in the PRCA office that I have not even touched on, but he labeled
it as “Typhoon Troy”.
Yet interesting enough you have singled out two members – Crystal
and I – because we have been “vocal” in asking questions on
message boards. News flash: I, like the rest of the world, had blind
faith in our educated cowboy until August 2006 when another member
started a thread on PBS by saying, “Hatchell is beginning to look
better all the time ...” That’s right, someone else, NOT ME,
felt they should start to ask questions as to what was going on at
HQ. Hermit said that if just one member opened their eyes he felt it
was OK to be slammed on a message board.
Guess in your mind it was unfortunate that I was the one who read
his post because I picked up a phone to see what in the world could
this person possibly be talking about?
Even I have to admit that because I was vocal in asking questions
that even I was surprised that I started to get emails and phone
calls out of blue by concerned members who wanted questions posted
but due to a fear of retaliation they could not do it. So I wound up
posting their questions ... and now you want me to address all the
problems that you brought up???
At this time I will only address one issue: The IRS
| Quote: |
Originally posted by KarenMartin
Thanks for you inquiry about obtaining the 990.
Form 990's that are not currently in the GuideStar database
can be obtained directly from the IRS using the following
steps:
1. Go to the website:
http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/index.html
2. In the top, left hand corner enter form "4506A"
in the "Search For" box and select "Forms and
Publications" in the drop down box below that.
3. Print the form
4. Complete the form
5. Fax form to (801) 620-7896
GuideStar Customer Service Representative |
As you can see, I received a “form letter email” from GuideStar;
and at 6:00 p.m. PST on January 17th I faxed the form 4506A to the
IRS.
But let’s back up the truck ... want to know how I found out about
GuideStar in the first place? When the issue of the NYC trip came up
on PBS someone under the alias of MusicMan (who I think is Talbot on
this board but hey, what do I know?) is the one who mentioned that
they were looking at some tax stuff online, specifically Cowboys for
Children/J. Adams. It was Larry McCormack who volunteered the info
to me that they were talking about GuideStar, and how the 990 is for
the general public to view it if they so desired. I did not know re
GuideStar until LM mentioned it.
Now, why oh why could you say that because I am the one who faxed a
standard request form on January 17th that this action could or
would result in IRS agents showing up at HQ 10 days later???
Do you honestly think that the IRS shows up that fast?
I found out about the IRS investigation by accident – I called
Larry regarding something totally unrelated and he said that IRS
agents had just left his house!!! He told me that a former employee
of HQ who was fired – *NOT McCORMACK* – is the one who contacted
the IRS – LAST YEAR – because this person knew of things going
on "in a non profit organization that needed to be
investigated". Obviously this person told the IRS to be sure to
talk to LM too; it appears that the IRS talked to these two past
employees first before they just showed up at HQ unannounced.
That’s right Stoney, someone who worked at HQ who had
personal knowledge of what was going on felt it was in the best
interest of the membership to contact the IRS!!!
Yet you are holding ME responsible for the IRS showing up, that my
action of faxing a simple request form is going to HAUNT the PRCA.
Oh, plaleeeeze!
If there is nothing to hide, why is everyone so spooked that
the IRS showed up?
Do you know that when I called the BODs last week that they had not
heard about the IRS visit which lasted a few days? Here’s the
kicker ... from one of my many sources (in this case not LM!) I was
told that TE got a call during the San Antonio board meeting that
the IRS showed up. Don’t you think this would have been the
perfect time for him to mention it to the BODs??? After all,
doesn’t the BODs have the RIGHT TO KNOW?
Yes, I agree: “Typhoon Troy”. Want to know why I was so upset to
hear about the years severance pay yesterday morning that made me
pick up the phone and call ALL the board members? Because in the
span of just a few weeks: the IRS started their investigation, the
WPRA refiled their lawsuit based upon actions of HQ, TE pleads
guilty re Balco, and Larry McCormack served his demand letter for
$500,000 which my understanding is that there are allegations of
criminal behavior against TE while he was commissioner.
Again, for some reason you think Crystal and I should address some
issues which you feel are more important.
Better idea: WHY DON’T YOU ADDRESS THOSE ISSUES?
[Edited on 2/21/07 by KarenMartin]
Best way to reach me is via email: MizKMart@aol.com
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SpringFling
Rookie
Posts: 42
Registered: 4-3-2006
Location: Out To Pasture
Member Is Offline
Mood: Broncy
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posted on 2-21-2007 at 11:27 AM |
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Originally posted by StoneyBurke
Karen and Crystal
You guys look right thru my posts and never answer my
questions except when I single you out, but never the
question that concern matters with the PRCA, as you all
expect everyone else too, every time you say jump.
How are you going to replace 6 Directors? It is not
up to Karen or I to replace the directors. That
responsibility lies with the members that
compete/participate in their respective endeavors. SF
What about the issues with Headquarters? One for example is
Pro-com, which Crystal you should know all about this, Two
Secretaries in the same house hold Actually, I don't
live with my parents like some 30- & | | | | | | |
